DEMOCRACY NOW
Kshama Sawant with Bernie Sanders at Westlake Park August 8 PHOTO/North Western Music Scene
AMY GOODMAN: The division among Democrats who support Bernie Sanders versus Hillary Clinton recalls the 2008 presidential campaign and the staunch Clinton supporters who joined together under the acronym PUMAs, or Party Unity My Ass, they said, vowing never to back her then-rival Barack Obama.
Well, for more, we’re joined by two guests. Mike McGinn is the former mayor of Seattle, serving from 2010 to ’13. He hosts a podcast on social change called You, Me, Us, Now. He is a Bernie Sanders supporter, but will support Hillary Clinton if she becomes the nominee. Kshama Sawant is a Socialist city councilmember in Seattle, member of the Socialist Alternative, a nationwide organization of social and economic justice activists. She also is a Bernie Sanders supporter, who says she will not support Clinton.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Kshama Sawant, let us begin with you, because you really started this whole Bernie or Bust campaign. Explain what it is.
KSHAMA SAWANT: So, I just wanted to clarify: Myself and Socialist Alternative, we did not launch the “Bernie or Bust” campaign. We launched what was called Movement4Bernie, Movement4Bernie.org website. But we are very much in sympathy with the sentiments that have been expressed by the people who have initiated Bernie or Bust, which is that it’s really kind of a bankrupt strategy to say that all the people, the millions of young people who have been politicized, you know, for the first time in their lives because of Sanders’s message of a political revolution against the billionaire class, should now all hunker down and support Clinton. And, you know, I think the analysis that we need to have really has to flow from some essential points. One is, this is a historic movement—moment, and a historic movement, really, since the Occupy movement. What we are seeing is a tremendous fundamental shift in American consciousness, and that is an anger against corporate politics and a desire to fight against the establishment.
On the other hand, you’re also seeing the ascendancy of Trump, which is, I think, on everybody’s mind—the rise of this right-wing ideology, Islamophobia, bigotry. And I absolutely find it terrifying. But my problem is that if we are looking for a real strategy to break working people away from Trump, then what we have to do is present a real alternative. And Sanders is right, Bernie is right: In poll after poll, repeatedly and systematically, he has done remarkably well in terms of the fact that if he was to be the Democratic candidate, he would deliver a thumping defeat to Trump. Why is the Democratic Party establishment not doing everything in their power to promote his campaign? That’s the question that people should be asking. And that’s why I would say, as a Socialist, that we need an independent party for the 99 percent. And a fantastic way to begin that process would be for Bernie to run as an independent throughout November.
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AMY GOODMAN: Mike McGinn, you are a die-hard Bernie Sanders supporter, but you feel differently if it was Hillary Clinton who would be the nominee: You would support her.
MICHAEL McGINN: Yes, that’s right. And I’m definitely an early Bernie Sanders supporter and, I would say, a die-hard one. I’m not a die-hard Democrat, by any means. And that’s one of the reasons I supported Bernie. In fact, I believe I endorsed Kshama in her re-election campaign just this past year here in Seattle. But the reason is, is that I look at the differences between Clinton and Trump, and what a disaster Trump would be. And I want to see—I look back on the election where—you know, I remember us thinking then that Al Gore, he was just too corporate, and he was just too Washington. And as I look at the lack of progress under Bush, all of the mistakes that happened under Bush, you know, I would have liked to have Gore.
And one of the things I would say to Sanders’ supporters is that the presidential race, it’s not the game, it’s just the scoreboard. And this is a high watermark right now for, you know, the movement that Kshama stands for and many of the things that I believe in, in that we need to return power to working people and address racism and get really serious about climate change. And that energy can move to a lot of other places besides this election. And clearly, the differences between Clinton and Trump lead me to support Clinton in this election.
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