Interview with Noam Chomsky

RED PEPPER

Frank Barat poses questions from artists, activists and journalists, on Egypt, corporate power, Palestine and more.

Frank Barat poses questions from artists, activists and journalists, on Egypt, corporate power, Palestine and more.

John Berger

Political practice often surprises political vocabulary. For example, the recent revolution in the Middle East is said to demand democracy. Can we find more adequate words? Isn’t the use of the old and frequently betrayed words a way of absorbing the shock, instead of welcoming it and transmitting it further?

Just to begin I think the word revolution is a bit of an exaggeration. Maybe it will turn into a revolution but for the moment it’s a call for a moderate reform. There are elements in it, like the workers movement that have tried to move beyond that but that remains to be seen. However, the point is correct but there is no way out of that. It’s not the just the word democracy, it’s every word that is involved in discussion of political affairs. It has two meanings. It has its literal meaning and it has the meaning that’s assigned to it for political welfare, for ideology, for doctrine. So either we stop talking or we try to use the words in a sensible way. And it’s not just about democracy.

Take a simple word like ‘person’. It sounds simple. Take a look at it. The United States is quite interesting. The United States has guarantees of personal rights that go beyond maybe any other country. But have a look at them. The amendments of the constitution states very explicitly that no person can be deprived of rights without due process of law. It reappears in the 14th amendment – it was in the 5th amendment, it was intended to apply to freed slaves but it’s never been applied to them. The courts narrowed the meaning and broadened the meaning crucially. They broadened the meaning to include corporations: fictitious legal entities established by a state power. So they were given the rights of persons, by now rights way beyond persons. On the other hand, it was also narrowed because the term ‘person’, you might think, would also apply to those creatures walking around doing the dirty work in the society, who don’t happen to have documents. And that wouldn’t do, because they must be deprived of rights. So the courts, in their wisdom, decided they’re not persons. The only persons are people with citizenship. So now non-human corporate entities like the Barclays Bank, they are persons, with rights way beyond persons. But humans, the people sweeping the streets, are not persons, they don’t have rights and the same is true to every term you look at.

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